...continued
THOMAS FRANK: Yeah, and that's another-- we also forget the
anthrax episode which happened right after 9/11. Look, this is not an
argument that I have made. That other people have-- that all of these
things need to be added to the list of government failures. And if you
want to talk why does government fail? You know, there's two answers
out there.
One is the conservative answer. Government fails because
that's the nature of government to fail. And if you want to look a
little bit deeper, you know, why does government fail? Because
government has been systematically destroyed. When we, whether you're
talking about the, you know, the pay gap and making-- deliberately
making government an unattractive career option. Or you're talking
about outsourcing.
This is another conservative strategy for dealing with the
state. If you hate and despise government employees. And you understand
them as, you know, unbelievable human wickedness, right? What do you do
about them? Well, the answer's obvious. And at the same time, you
believe in the market. You believe that private industry does
everything better. You outsource the Federal workforce.
BILL MOYERS: Have we reached a stage where you make
things bad enough that people despair and then you manipulate their
despair into-- to your own advantage in the next election?
THOMAS FRANK: It's a cynical town, Washington, D.C.
And the conservative movement tends to be deeply, deeply, deeply
cynical about government. Now, it's also, I mean, deeply idealistic
about the market. I mean, the market can do no wrong, almost by
definition. But government they regard as a criminal gang. I mean,
many, many conservatives have compared-- oh, they always do, compare
government to criminals. All the time.
Taxation is a form of theft. It's as bad as a mugger in the
street saying, "Give me your money." And America is pretty much unique
among the nations in that our political system, half of our political
system is basically dedicated to the destruction of the government from
within. I don't know any other country where that's the case. But
there's plenty of countries where government works really, really well.
I mean, even, for God's sake, in India, you know, which we don't think
of as being an advanced industrial society, their banks didn't all go
bust in the latest downturn. Now, why is that?
Because their equivalent of the Federal Reserve was not, you
know, deregulating, stopping enforcement. They weren't doing any of
those things. They were keeping a very tight lid on it. Government can
work. It works all the time.
BILL MOYERS: You wrote "What's the Matter with
Kansas?" Let me ask you to broaden that canvas and ask, with the answer
to the question, what's the matter with America that we tolerate all of
this?
THOMAS FRANK: I think a large part of it is that--
well, it's the chronic historical forgetting, you know? We just elected
Barack Obama in this-- you know, he had quite a mandate. You know,
biggest majority of any President since Reagan. And now a year later,
and the public is already turning on him. And that's a part of the
problem.
But, you know, another part of it is that the conservative
argument about government and freedom is very compelling when they say
that something like, you know, the national, you know, any proposal for
a national health program is a violation of our freedom. Americans
don't like to hear that their freedom is being violated. That is a hot
button argument. Now, the obvious-- look, there's an obvious response
that Democrats could make. Which is no, this is a way of growing our
freedom. This will actually expand human freedom, not limit it. They
never say that.
BILL MOYERS:
Why? So, part of the problem with America is the Democratic Party?
THOMAS FRANK: A huge part of the problem, because look,
the conservatives have for decades now made their-- the whole point of
their party is to attack government, attack the state, encourage
cynicism about government. And then wreck it when they're in charge,
right?
Democrats never defend the state. They never come out and say,
"No, no. It's important to have, you know, government. It's important
to have a Department of Labor. These are, you know, having government
actually-- a good government increases your freedom. It doesn't ruin
it." They never fight back consistently.
BILL MOYERS:
Why?
THOMAS FRANK: I think they're-- some of them do. You've
got members of Congress here and there that do. But by and large, the
prominent leading Democrats in our society don't do that. Why is that?
Because I think that would get them in trouble with their funders. I
mean, the power of money is huge in the political system. You know,
despite all the efforts that have been made over the years to get money
out of politics. It's still immensely powerful.
BILL MOYERS: The book is Thomas Frank, "The Wrecking
Crew." The literary journal is "The Baffler." Congratulations on both
of them. And thanks for being with me on the Journal.
THOMAS FRANK:
It was my pleasure.