5/28/10

CHARLIE ROSE:  We have come to Damascus, Syria, for a conversation with the president at a time that he seeks for his country to play a more prominent role in the region.  

    Bashar al-Assad came to power in Syria in 2000 after the death of his father.  Today he is putting Syria back on the map after a period of isolation.  The region’s leaders, it is said, are all strung up in Damascus to talk to him and to do business.  

    He has strengthened ties with Turkey, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, and Lebanon, and also with Russia and Qatar.  

    The United States and Syria are having real conversations about engagement.  Senator John Kerry the Senate Foreign Relations Committee Chairman was here this weekend for an unofficial visit.  

    We have come back to Damascus to talk to President al-Assad about how he sees Syria, its role in the world, its region, the Middle East peace process, and his relationships with Iran, Hezbollah, Hamas, and others.  

    Most importantly, we come to talk about Syria and the United States and the possibilities for engagement between the two countries.  

    Mr. President, thank you very much for allowing me to come here for another conversation with you.  It was in 2006 that I was here, and I’m pleased to be back in 2010 to this great city, Damascus, the oldest continuously inhabited city in the world.  

    BASHAR AL-ASSAD:  Welcome to Syria.  I’m very glad to see you today in Damascus.  

    CHARLIE ROSE:  I’m not the only American who has been here recently.  Senator John Kerry, the chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, was here on Saturday and recently as well.  Is something happening in the relationship between Syria and the United States?  

    BASHAR AL-ASSAD:  Since President Obama came to power, there is some improvement at least in the atmosphere.  There are a lot of concrete things happening.  It’s moving forward slowly.

    But the main interest of the administration now and the visit of Senator Kerry is about how can we re-launch the peace process.  President Obama is interested in the peace process in general, but the talk with Senator Kerry was about the Syrian track.  And I think the main, the crux of the problem in this region is the lack of peace.  

    CHARLIE ROSE:  It is also said that he came here in a sense as an emissary of the president.  

    BASHAR AL-ASSAD:  That’s true.  

    CHARLIE ROSE:  What is it you want to say to the president of the United States about your view of the region, your own strategic sense of what’s possible?  

    BASHAR AL-ASSAD:  If you’re going to talk about the region, and you know this region is the heart of the world geographically and politically, you have to talk about the role of a great power the United States.  

    I think the main issue in this region is the occupation.  When you talk about conflict you have to go to the reason.  The reason we have conflict is that we have occupied land.  At the same time you have Security Council resolutions that mention very clearly the need of Israel to withdraw from these lands.  So this is where the peace starts.  

    I think if I am going to talk to him, I would say to him all the details in elaboration.  But I would urge him to move faster in order to reach peace in the region.  

    CHARLIE ROSE:  But you have said in an interview recently with an Italian newspaper that you have a strategic vision, but it seems that America is engaged in a trial and error.  What did you mean?  

    BASHAR AL-ASSAD:  We are wondering about what strategy the United States has toward the different conflict, whether Iraq, Afghanistan, peace process, and any other main conflict.  

    But I’m talking about different administrations, not only this administration.  The question that we asked to many officials is, what is your strategy?  They only put the title of stability, but stability is the final -- is the goal of all -- the final stage or the final end of solving all the other problems.  

    So the United States administration has been failing, failing and failing, in still solving the problems.  Why?  This is linked and related to what I said that the region has changed.  They have to adopt different approach toward our region.  They cannot adopt the same approach.  

    CHARLIE ROSE:  But with respect to U.S.-Syria, what would you like to see the United States do?  

    BASHAR AL-ASSAD:  In the peace process?  

    CHARLIE ROSE:  In the relationship with Syria.  

    BASHAR AL-ASSAD:  Of course you cannot separate the two -- the two things, because if they want to play the role of the arbiter, they cannot play that role while they are sided with the Israelis.  They have to be impartial arbiter.  They are not.  And they were never impartial arbiters since the beginning of the peace process.  

    They have to gain the trust of the different players.  If you don’t have good relations with Syria, how can Syria depend on you as arbiter?  So you have to improve relations.

    So I told the American official that we have to start on improving the relationship - if you talk about putting Syria on the terrorism act, sorry, terrorism list, they have the Syria Accountability Act in the Congress

    CHARLIE ROSE:  Right, right, which they just reconfirmed.

    BASHAR AL-ASSAD:   yeah, exactly.

    CHARLIE ROSE:  With some modifications.

    BASHAR AL-ASSAD:  yeah - There was the veto of Syria joining the WTO, but it was lifted.  So that's why I say, there are some improvements, but there are still very, we have a long way to go in that regard.  So I would like the United States to be fair and to be unbiased in order to achieve that.  

    CHARLIE ROSE:  Senator Kerry has said that Syria is a high priority for this administration.  Have they convinced you of that?  

    BASHAR AL-ASSAD:  We are waiting for the results.  Without the results -- I trust Senator Kerry.  I trust Senator Kerry, and I think he is earnest.  And I met him five times before this meeting.  I met him five times in very difficult circumstances.  So what he said, he said what he means.  

    But at the end he is not the one that is going to implement.  You have the administration and you have the Congress.  So in the end we are looking for results.  

    Today I’m convinced about what he said, but I’m convinced that President Obama wants to do something positive in that regard.  But I’m not convinced that the institution would allow President Obama to do what he wants to do with Syria and in other subjects and issues.  

    CHARLIE ROSE:  You seem to be saying that President Obama has the right ideas but you’re not sure that he can act on them.  

    BASHAR AL-ASSAD:  Not, because he cannot, because you have institutions in the United States.  You have your political system.  It is not only the president.  If it’s only the president, we could blame the president.  We can say that he didn’t do what he had to do.  

    But you have the institutions and you have the Congress.  For example, the ambassador to Syria who was about to come, but the Congress, the Republicans in the Congress opposed it recently.  So the President has to stop.  So that is why I said it’s not that the president doesn’t want to or he cannot do something.  It is about the whole political system that you have in the United States.  And you know more than me about it.  

    CHARLIE ROSE:  But you consider it an act of respect for Syria that they confirm a Syrian ambassador from the United States?  

    BASHAR AL-ASSAD:  Yes.  But in the end the ambassador is to help your country, not to help my country.  I have my ambassador to do that.  So this is not a help to Syria.  This is a help to the United States that they have ambassadors anywhere in the world.  

    I’m not saying that this is something to deliver to Syria, but I’m just giving an example about the steps you wanted to take to improve the relations, but somebody (AIPAC?) opposed it because of the political system that you have.  That is what I mean.  

    CHARLIE ROSE:  How do you see Syria, Turkey, Iraq, Iran, the northern tier in the region?  

    BASHAR AL-ASSAD:  Normally you should have good relations with your neighbors, something we’ve learned from our experience during the last decades.  We’ve been in conflict, Syria and Iraq, Syria and Turkey, Iraq and Turkey, and other countries.  

    What did we get?  Nothing.  We’ve been losing for decades.  

    We’ve learned during the last decade that we have to turn the tide.  So everybody is going forward with good relation with the other even if it doesn’t have the same vision or even if they disagree about most of the things, not part, not some things.  

    So this relation, Syria and Iraq, we are neighbors.  Syria and Turkey we are neighbors.  We affect each other directly.  Iran is not my neighbor, but Iran is one of the big countries in the Middle East and an important country and it plays a role and affects different issues in the region.  

    So if you want to play your role and help yourself and save your interest, you should have good relation with all these influential countries.  That’s why this relation I think is very normal.  

    CHARLIE ROSE:  There are those in America would like to believe America can do something that will put some distance between you and Iran, that they can make you less close.  

    BASHAR AL-ASSAD:  They contradict themselves.  They talk about stability in the region.  Stability starts with good relations.  You can’t have stability and bad relations.  

    Second, what their argument, why do they need Syria to be away from Iran?  They have conflict with Iran.  What does it mean to put Syria away from Iran?  

    Sometimes they talk about the relation between Syria and Iranian relations, and the peace.  That’s not true.  It is not realistic, because Iran supported our efforts to achieve, to give back our land through the peace negotiations in 2008 when we had negotiations in Turkey.  

    CHARLIE ROSE:  Let me underline that.  You believe that Iran, even though it says it does not recognize Israel’s right to exist, when you through Turkey were trying to negotiate with the Israelis, the Iranians were supportive of that.  

    BASHAR AL-ASSAD:  Exactly.  

    CHARLIE ROSE:  And so you are saying actions speak louder than words.  

    BASHAR AL-ASSAD:  Exactly.  And actually they said it inward, they said publicly that we support you.  They said it twice during the negotiations and formally.  So you cannot see with one eye.  

    CHARLIE ROSE:  Yes.  

    BASHAR AL-ASSAD:  So that is what is happening.  They see only what they want to.  They hear what they want to hear and they ignore the other stand from the same government.  

    CHARLIE ROSE:  Do you think America misunderstands Iran?  

    BASHAR AL-ASSAD:  They misunderstand the region, definitely.  And that sometimes is normal because it is different culture very far away.
    
    But after the 11th of September, at least after the 11th of September, you should learn more about what is happening behind the ocean.  It is not about what you think.  It is about what we think.  They have to understand the society, the culture in this region, and in the rest of the world that this region, because it is complicated.  

    CHARLIE ROSE:  What is this they don’t understand, those in Washington about the region, about the culture, about Syria’s role, about Iran?  

    BASHAR AL-ASSAD:  They don’t understand that we want peace.  But if you want peace, it doesn’t mean -- if you want to sign a peace treaty, it doesn’t mean we accept to sign capitulation agreement.  That’s what they don’t understand.  There is a big different between capitulation agreement, that is I'm talking about the perception in our region, how we see it, and peace treaty.  

    Peace treaty means having all your rights.  This is the second about Iran, the nuclear issue.  The nuclear fight is about Iran having the right to have peaceful nuclear reactor.  You cannot deal with Iran through the Security Council through threats.  

    And the evidence that they didn’t understand this recent agreement between Turkey, Brazil, and Iran.  And I told the official that I met recently from Europe after that agreement that this agreement is the proof that the west didn’t understand this region, because Turkey and Brazil succeeded in getting what the world has been asking for during the last year in a few weeks, because they understand this region and they adopted different approach, which is dialogue, not threat, not imposing.  

    CHARLIE ROSE:  Their interpretation of what happened between Iran and Turkey and Iran and Brazil is that it’s just another effort by Iran to delay sanctions so that they can get on with building a nuclear capacity.  

    BASHAR AL-ASSAD:  You mean about the 1,200 kilogram?  

    CHARLIE ROSE:  Yes.  

    BASHAR AL-ASSAD:  Or about the agreement.  

    CHARLIE ROSE:  The agreement was intended to delay sanctions and nothing more.  

    BASHAR AL-ASSAD:  Iran didn’t talk about sending or making an agreement, sending uranium abroad.  The five countries plus one asked for this and that’s what Iran did.  So they talked about it.  

       You can keep saying that whatever we do, whatever Iran does, you have suspicion about Iran.  But the international relation is about -- is not about trusting.  It’s about mechanism.  You have mechanism.  And this mechanism is in the agency, IAEA agency.
       
       And you have the NP-3 treaty, nonproliferation treaty.  That’s what you can depend, not the trust.  You don’t have to trust.  Trust is something personal.  But if you talk about the relation, international relation, it’s about mechanism, and you have the mechanism.  So whether it is trust Iran or doesn’t trust it is not the issue.  

    CHARLIE ROSE:  But it is the issue that if Iran had nuclear ability for a nuclear weapon, it would destabilize the region.  

    BASHAR AL-ASSAD:  That’s why you need the mechanism of the IAEA.  That their role is to make sure that this is for civil, not military program.  

    CHARLIE ROSE:  But they say the Iranians have mislead them.  The IAEA says Iran has misled us and did not give us the information we needed.  

    BASHAR AL-ASSAD:  That happened when they moved the five from the IAEA to the Security Council.  But before that, at the very beginning of the issue, remember, there was cameras by the IAEA was set up inside the nuclear reactors.  

    So when the problem started, particularly because of Bush’s intention, bad intention toward Iran, this is where the problem started.  Now I think they have to do two things.  Take it away from the Security Council, because if you take any action against Iran, there will be no solution, I think it going to be --   

    CHARLIE ROSE:  In other words, if the Security Council imposes sanctions, you think what?  

    BASHAR AL-ASSAD:  Iran said publicly a few days ago that if they don’t accept this agreement, and they go to the Security Council, they will withdraw from the agreement.  And if they withdraw from the agreement, thus means the problem will be more complicated, and that means there will be no solution.  

    CHARLIE ROSE:  So therefore we should be supportive, not engage in sanctions from the U.N. Security Council --

    BASHAR AL-ASSAD:  Of course.  

    CHARLIE ROSE:  -- and be supportive of the agreement between Iran and Brazil and Iran and Turkey?  

    BASHAR AL-ASSAD:  Exactly.  That is what I mean by going back to the agency.  

    CHARLIE ROSE:  Do you believe Iran wants nuclear weapons?  

    BASHAR AL-ASSAD:  No.  

    CHARLIE ROSE:  You don’t?  

    BASHAR AL-ASSAD:  No.  

    CHARLIE ROSE:  Why not?  

    BASHAR AL-ASSAD:  Because what would they do when you have nuclear bomb?  What can you do?  You cannot, is it a deterant?  No.  

    CHARLIE ROSE:  Is that what they said to you?  

    BASHAR AL-ASSAD:  Yes, definitely.  

    CHARLIE ROSE:  President Ahmadinejad says to you, the president of Syria, I do not want nuclear weapons.  

    BASHAR AL-ASSAD:  Every official in Iran says that.  

    CHARLIE ROSE:  And you believe them?  

    BASHAR AL-ASSAD:  Of course I believe, because what to do with it?  There’s nothing.  I mean what is the aim to have it?  

    CHARLIE ROSE:  Then why are they engaged in sort of in the appearance of some, the IAEA, deception, and they discover these centrifuges inside mountains that they didn’t know about?  

    BASHAR AL-ASSAD:  It is not deception.  That is how you define it in the west.  

    Actually, the five plus one countries weren’t -- they didn’t come -- they didn’t come to Iran with good intentions.  They started with saying you have to stop your program.  I have the right to have civil program.  Why to stop it?  

    Syria is suspicious.  But it doesn’t matter if your suspicious or not.  What are the mechanisms?  You should adopt the IAEA.  They started making political pressure and this is when you started, the problem started.  Not because Iran started to deceive.  If they wanted to deceive they wouldn’t have allowed them to have cameras inside the reactors.  

    CHARLIE ROSE:  But you do believe that if Iran had a nuclear weapon, it would destabilize the region?  

    BASHAR AL-ASSAD:  We are against any nuclear weapons in the region.  We have a Syrian draft in the Security Council since 2003, about freeing the Middle East from any WMDs, of course including Israel, but we do not talk about Iran destabilizing the region if they have -- if you presume that they are going to have nuclear bomb, something I don’t believe in, while ignoring Israel.  

    Israel started this problem.  Israel is the only country who has nuclear bombs in the region, not Iran.  

    CHARLIE ROSE:  If Israel has nuclear weapons everybody else has not rushed in to have nuclear weapons in the region.  

    BASHAR AL-ASSAD:  I don’t know.  But when you have action, you have reaction.  But in Syria we don’t believe they should have nuclear weapons in order to deter Israel because I don’t think it is easy for anyone to say that I’m going to use nuclear weapons.  

    CHARLIE ROSE:  If the United States says to you we do not approve of your support of Hamas and especially Hezbollah, and we want you to reduce that level of support, what do you say?  

    BASHAR AL-ASSAD:  What the reason?  What the argument?  They only want -- doesn’t matter if they want.  What is the reason?  How can they convince me, convince me that I should agree with the support?  

    Our support is political because Hamas, the Palestinian Organization, the Palestinians have occupied land.  They have the right to have their own state.  They don’t have.  They have the right to have their own land back after ‘67, something they haven’t had yet.  

    The same for Hezbollah.  The Israelis are violating the airspace of Syria on a daily basis every few hours, not every day, every few hours.  So they have the right to defend their country.  

    My answer, because they asked me that question many times, many times, that instead of adopting this cherry picking approach once you talk about Hamas, once you talk about Hezbollah, why do you have the elephant in the room?  

    So let’s talk about the peace.  This elephant is the occupation and the Israeli aggression.  When you don’t have Israeli aggression, when you don’t have occupation, forget about all these problems.  It will be solved ultimately.  

    CHARLIE ROSE:  But are you saying that if, in fact there was an agreement between the Palestinians, if they were unified and there was an agreement, that you would be less supportive of Hezbollah and Hamas?  

    BASHAR AL-ASSAD:  We support cause.  What the cause, the cause that they have occupied land.  If they don’t have occupied land, what is the support?  I don’t have anything to support.  They have their own right.  

    I support somebody who has the right -- I mean he has a right, but they don’t give it back to him.  So that is what we support.  We support their cause.  When they have the state, maybe they have another cause that I will talk about something different.  But today we support their right to have their own independent state.  

    CHARLIE ROSE:  But you were saying you support Hezbollah and Hamas at the level you do because there is no Israeli-Palestinian agreement?  

    BASHAR AL-ASSAD:  Israel should stop violating, stop launching aggression from time to time against Lebanon or against Syria.  That is what we support.  

    CHARLIE ROSE:  The United States, it is said that Senator Kerry believes that you and Syria has supplied Scud missiles to Hezbollah.  

    BASHAR AL-ASSAD:  This is very good story anecdotal story by the Israelis.  They are very good at making up --   

    CHARLIE ROSE:  So the story came from the Israelis?  

    BASHAR AL-ASSAD:  The Israelis.  

    CHARLIE ROSE:  And is it true?  

    BASHAR AL-ASSAD:  We told them what evidence do you have?  If you want to say that you have smuggled -- they have been repeating this story from time to time, for years, not for months.  

    And every time that you are scanning the borders between Syria and Lebanon every hour for 24 hours and you cannot catch any big missiles, Scud or any other one, it is not realistic.  This is Israeli allegations.  These are false pretensions and vicious statements.  

    CHARLIE ROSE:  But my impression is that Senator Kerry came here on Saturday to say the United States believes this to be true.  And the United States believes according to its own intelligence sources that weapons have gone, new Scud missiles have gone to Hezbollah from you.  

    BASHAR AL-ASSAD:  We can only talk about this, discuss it with them when they came to us with the evidence.  Your debate on rumors, give us the time.  Do you have evidence, or you only heard?  

       If you only heard, you don’t have to waste our time.  You have evidence, you said your intelligence, the Israeli intelligence, bring the evidence, bring me the pictures, bring me all the information to discuss.  
       
       When you tell me you believe, this is your problem if you believe.  I don’t have to waste my time with what you believe or not.  We know the reality.  Hezbollah is a strong organization.  It’s not weak at all.  They have is millions, everybody knows.  

    CHARLIE ROSE:  In fact they have said they have missiles, they have better and more advanced missiles than they’ve had before.  

    BASHAR AL-ASSAD:  How did they know?  When Israel attacked Lebanon in 2006, they didn’t care about the bunkers that they have in the south just a few kilometers away from the Israeli forces.  How could they know about the advancement that they have?  These are rumors.  

       They are afraid and worried about what Hezbollah is doing.  Hezbollah, like any other organization, it’s a war.  When you have a war, everybody will make his position better and stronger.  That’s normal.  
       
       But as a politician we don’t waste our time with condemning or blaming Hezbollah having this or having that.  This is reality.  You have this reality, you have to deal with it.  You have to deal with it.  Go towards the peace.  Not waste time talking about what kind of missiles or how many missiles -- this is just a waste of time.  
       
       Solve the problem through the peace process.  That is why we are talking about peace and we are working for peace in order for all these problems.  And Israel should know only peace can protect Israel, not creating this propaganda and making up false stories or an elusive story.  

    CHARLIE ROSE:  If Senator Kerry suggested that he believes and the United States believes that you were supplying weapons to Hezbollah, new Scud missiles, you are saying absolutely not, we are not doing that.  

    BASHAR AL-ASSAD:  I said no.  But at the same time, I told him we don’t waste our time with this.  When you have evidence come to me.  If they have evidence, we can discuss.  But we don’t discuss it.  

    CHARLIE ROSE:  Do you think it would be the wrong thing to do, that it would be destabilizing to do that, supply weapons to Hezbollah.  

    BASHAR AL-ASSAD:  I think what is destabilizing is the Israeli aggression in our region.  They attacked Syria, they attacked Lebanon, they have been attack Israeli -- sorry, the Palestinians on a daily basis.  That is what destabilized the region. They go through the door from the occupied land, that is what destabilized the region, not Hezbollah and any other organization that they defend themselves.  

    CHARLIE ROSE:  If the United States comes to you and says, you know we want to do things in the region.  We want to be a positive force.  And we are prepared to do this we are prepared to encourage Israel to do this.  And we ask you to stop being so supportive of Hezbollah and Hamas because we believe that they are engaged in sort of in certain terrorist activities.  We ask you to stop supporting them.  You are saying that’s to the going to happen?  

    BASHAR AL-ASSAD:  It’s like if you talk about a chapter in a book, every time you read that chapter, you have to read the whole book to understand this chapter.  

       So the meantime, I would say of course, we will be ready to -- we would like to see this region free of armaments, free of conflict, free of everything.  But that will not happen only through talking about one factor while you have the main important factor which is the occupation is in place.  
       
       So we have to solve it as a package.  And this package should be piece.  There is no other way.  It’s just a waste of time.  So we have to go in this way, through the peace.  

    CHARLIE ROSE:  There is this whole sense of Syria and its identification and its relationship to the aforementioned Iran, Hezbollah, Hamas, that it is -- it’s part of this resistance that gives Syria power and legitimacy.  

    BASHAR AL-ASSAD:  You can have this legitimacy as long as you adhere to your rights.  That is legitimacy.  That is the political legitimacy that you can have.  While supporting the resistance -- they have the public support anyway, whether they support it as a government or not, they have the support of the public in this region.  That is why they are strong.  Not by the government.  

    CHARLIE ROSE:  Some find it interesting that your allies are Islamist, in one case a theocracy, and yet Syria is a secular state.  

    BASHAR AL-ASSAD:  That’s true.  And that’s why they don’t understand.  This is one of the things that they don’t understand in the west, especially in the United States, because if I support you doesn’t mean I’m like you or I agree with you.  That means I believe in your cause.  

    There is a difference.  Maybe if we don’t have this cause, maybe we have different debate with them or different relation, while now they have a cause and we support the cause.  

    We don’t support organizations.  We support the Palestinian cause, and Hamas is working for that cause, and the same for Hezbollah.  Hezbollah is working for the Lebanese cause.  So we support that cause, not Hezbollah.  But Hezbollah is one of the means.  So that’s what they have to understand in the west.  

    CHARLIE ROSE:  Speaking of Lebanon and Hezbollah, the withdrawal of Syrian traps from Lebanon, tell me how you felt about that.  

    BASHAR AL-ASSAD:  At that time, of course it wasn’t, let’s say, positive feeling, I will put it in that word, because of the reaction in Lebanon.  Today the atmosphere is different.  We were very cooperative with the different delegation that came for the investigation of the Hariri assassination, and it was proven today it was nothing to do with Syria.  And that changed --   

    CHARLIE ROSE:  The investigation not over, or has not been --

    BASHAR AL-ASSAD:  No, but we are -- from the very beginning we were very sure about it.  But now the Lebanese people know this that Syria had nothing to do with this assassination.  

    That means Syria, Syria’s influence in Lebanon has always been strong because of the geopolitical position, not because of the army.  The army in Lebanon didn’t do anything, wasn’t involved in politics.  Few politicians, few officers in Syria need to be involved.  

    So the Syria influence and the Syrian clout is still as strong as it was, so we don’t have problem.  We don’t look at it as undermined Syria.  

    CHARLIE ROSE:  So you do not feel like you need to reintroduce Syrian troops to Lebanon?  

    BASHAR AL-ASSAD:  Actually we had been with the drawing out troops since before the conflict.  

    CHARLIE ROSE:  So you want no Syrian troops in Lebanon?  

    BASHAR AL-ASSAD:  We withdrew 63 percent of our troops before the conflict stopped in Lebanon.  That was our intention.  

    CHARLIE ROSE:  Mr. Hariri, the prime minister, had been here a number of times.  You have a very good relationship.  You exchanged ambassadors.  What do you say to him about his father when he comes?  

    BASHAR AL-ASSAD:  The first is you have to be as frank as you can, even if you think that we were behind the assassination.  But we didn’t talk about the issue.  

    CHARLIE ROSE:  You basically said you’ve got to be frank and tell me what you think even if you think that Syria was behind the Hariri assassination.  

    BASHAR AL-ASSAD:  Exactly.  If you want to build the relation we have to be fully frank with each other.  

    CHARLIE ROSE:  The relationship with Turkey is very good.  Turkey was serving as an intermediary between negotiations between you and the Israelis.  

    BASHAR AL-ASSAD:  Yes.  

    CHARLIE ROSE:  It came that close, in which you would get back the Golan Heights.  Yes?

    BASHAR AL-ASSAD:  This very important.  What we have now as a reference is mainly the United Nations or Security Council resolution.  It’s a very important, but it’s not defined.  It talks about the land occupied in ‘67, but how can you define this land?  Israel is talking about different line.  How you can define this line?  

    We wanted in that negotiation to define the line through some point and Israel wanted to define its security requirements.  So if we define these two things and we move to the direct negotiations, whenever you have arbiter, this arbiter can play its role only through this paper, not like what happened in the ‘90s when some politicians, some of them with goodwill, spoiled the process with the goodwill, but with enthusiasm but with a lack of knowledge, and others, self-serving interests, politicians for their own interest.  
       
       Now when you have this paper, anyone who wants to play a role, any mediator, any official, any arbiter should play through this paper, and this is where you can succeed, not to have 19 wasteful years.  

    CHARLIE ROSE:  You’re prepared to start those negotiations over.  

    BASHAR AL-ASSAD:  Of course.  We are ready.  We don’t think that it’s time for peace.  It’s always time for peace.  We don’t say it’s now time or it's not time for peace.  It is always time for peace.  

    CHARLIE ROSE:  You broke the negotiations off because of the Gaza invasion.  

    BASHAR AL-ASSAD:  Syria and Turkey, because Olmert deceived Prime Minister Erdogan.  Four days before the invasion Prime Minister Erdogan called me on the phone and Olmert was in the other room having dinner, and we started talking about the final details of that paper.  

       And after one hour, or actually more than one hour of discussion with the Prime Minister Erdogan and him discussing with Olmert, he told him, Prime Minister Olmert told Erdogan that I’m going back to Israel and I will let you know about my final answer in a few days.  
       
       And the answer was attacking Gaza.  That is where the Turks felt deceived and we said the same.  

    CHARLIE ROSE:  But you are prepared to start over?  

    BASHAR AL-ASSAD:  Of course.  

    CHARLIE ROSE:  Through Turkey.  

    BASHAR AL-ASSAD:  Through Turkey.  

    CHARLIE ROSE:  And is the goal a Syria-Israeli agreement, or have you now said it has to be a larger agreement for the Middle East?  

    BASHAR AL-ASSAD:  It has to be comprehensive.  The Syrian-Israeli agreement could be important step, but it’s not the final step.  There is a big difference between talking about peace treaty and peace.  Peace treaty is like permanent ceasefire it is not comprehensive.  There is no war.  Maybe you have embassies, but you actually won’t have the trade, you won’t have normal relations because people will not be sympathetic to have this relation.

    As long as they are sympathetic with the Palestinians, half a million in Syria, half a million in Lebanon, and another few million in other countries.  So comprehensive peace on the Syrian, Lebanese, and Palestinian track, this is going to be the real peace where you have normal relations.  This is where can with bury the hatchet, not only to have peace treaty.  So that’s how we see it.  

    CHARLIE ROSE:  Do you think it will happen soon?  

    BASHAR AL-ASSAD:  From our point of view, it could happen soon if we have another partner, because this is about, actually the peace process about two parties.  If you ask me, I would say yes.  But today we don’t have this partner, so far.  At this moment we are don’t have a partner.  

    CHARLIE ROSE:  You don’t think Prime Minister Netanyahu wants to make a deal?  

    BASHAR AL-ASSAD:  Again, it’s to the about him.  It’s about the whole government.  Can he lead the government toward peace?  Is he strong enough to lead this government toward peace, because, you know, it’s a coalition now.  It is a coalition.  You are not -- he doesn’t have the majority to say I’m going in that direction.  

    So in reality, nothing happening.  So why do it?  Where is the time expected?  He’s been for now in his position for a year, nearly year and a half.  And he couldn’t do anything.  So I don’t know if he has the will or he has the power.  I don’t know.  

    CHARLIE ROSE:  On the other side of the Palestinians and they are not unified, is Fatah, Hamas.  

    BASHAR AL-ASSAD:  Yes.  

    CHARLIE ROSE:  Can they be unified?  

    BASHAR AL-ASSAD:  Of course they can.  If you help them, they can be unified.  They have to be unified.  Without unification in the Palestinian arena, you cannot have peace.  You need this unification.  It is not about who is going to sign the treaty.  At the end if you want to implement the treaty you need unification.  You need unified Palestinian.  

    CHARLIE ROSE:  And what do you think the possibilities are that Hamas, if there is unification, will support, will support a recognition of Israel and an agreement between the Palestinians so that they will no longer say we refuse the right of Israel to exist?  

    BASHAR AL-ASSAD:  They said that particularly when they talked about two state solution, Hamas.  

    CHARLIE ROSE:  So Hamas is prepared to -- but are they prepared to renounce their charter?  

    BASHAR AL-ASSAD:  I wouldn’t answer on their behalf.  But what I know publicly now that they talked about the two state solution and they talked about the line of ‘67.  What do you conclude?  We can conclude that they are ready.   

    But how is a different question.  Maybe in different ways than what the authority is doing today, maybe they have their own way.  

    CHARLIE ROSE:  Do you believe Israel wants peace?  

    BASHAR AL-ASSAD:  I think people who elect such extremist governments, they don’t want peace.  But I think in politics, I would say let me see what is going to happen in reality.  I don’t believe, but that doesn’t mean we have to stop working for peace.  

    If I don’t believe that they want peace, we have to help them in believing in peace.  They have to learn that only peace can protect their country.  

    CHARLIE ROSE:  What is the biggest thing that is necessary to make a breakthrough in your judgment?  

    BASHAR AL-ASSAD:  You should ask yourself what happened first.  Occupation, occupation happened first before migration, not vice versa.  After ‘48 -- after ‘48, ‘67, in different stages.  

    So definitely the one who occupied the land should withdraw because my land is like my property, and if you have a thief who takes your property, you don’t make compromise.  Tell him first give me back my property, my goods, my things, then we can discuss any compromise.  You don’t discuss the compromise with the thief before having your things.  

    So that’s how we see it.  So the beginning is to end the occupation.  Then you will have conversation.

    CHARLIE ROSE:  But in the conversations everything should be on the table and there should be no preconditions?  

    BASHAR AL-ASSAD:  We don’t have any conditions.  There’s only one condition which is international condition, which is the Security Council resolution on which the whole peace process is based in 1991.  So we don’t have any conditions, but we have rights.  And rights you don’t discuss until you go back.  

    CHARLIE ROSE:  Do you believe this region is going to a place where it does not need to look for solutions from the west?  

    BASHAR AL-ASSAD:  In the past we used to think that everything will happen in the west, and to be implemented here.  Then you will have the solution ready.  And you won’t have any conflict.  

    This is very deluded.  Actually the reality is that you have to do your own job.  But you need the support from the west.  But if you don’t have the support, we don’t wait for it, we don’t wait for the west.  We are going to go forward to solve our problems but we are not going to wait for the west.  

    But if they support us, that will make the solution better and faster.  

    CHARLIE ROSE:  Let me focus again on the dynamic of this region.  

    BASHAR AL-ASSAD:  Today you have Iran, you have Turkey, you have Syria, and you have Qatar.  If you want to talk about the cooperation, for example, regarding the peace, we had a meeting in Istanbul, me and Erdoga and the prince of Qatar.  It was about the peace, because Turkey and Qatar are partners with Syria in the peace issue.  

    So you have different maps regarding different issues.  We had a meeting with Iran regarding defending our rights, regarding the Israeli aggression, regarding issue in Iraq, regarding Iraq, there is cooperation between Syria, Turkey and Iran.  So you have different rights, but all of them in the same region.  

    So this is the new dynamism that we have that depends on every subject.  

    CHARLIE ROSE:  And Russia, where does Russia fit in this?  

    BASHAR AL-ASSAD:  I cannot tell now because this is the first visit by any president Soviet or Russian to Syria during the last 66 years, since we started the relations with Russia.  

    It seems to me that Russia is working to regain its own position but in different way, not like the cold war during the 60s, 70s and 80s.  I think in a new way through having new lives, good relation, strong relations.  

    After he left Syria he went to Turkey to sign the 20 billions treaties to open the borders between the two countries.  If you want to look at the space from our perspective, Syria-Turkey, then Turkey-Russia, so relations, strong relation between Russia and Turkey will influence directly and indirectly the relation between Syria and Russia.  In parallel with direct relationship between Syria and Russia.

    But this is geographic space.  So you have to look at it as a map that will affect each other.  

    What about the affect of this Russian relation?  Recently, it is too early to judge.  I don’t know yet.  Economically it will definitely affect the region very soon.  And the economy will affect the politics.  How much is something that we have to wait to see.  But it will tell you about a new map being created and forged in this region, as you call it.  

    CHARLIE ROSE:  The United States has always believed into Syria did not do enough to prevent foreigners from coming through your border with Iraq, and that it was a huge issue for them.  

    BASHAR AL-ASSAD:  See, the borders are not envelope to be sealed.  You can't control, you can't monitor something like this.  So they are not realistic.  This is the second they talked about Syria smuggling or helping terrorists to be smuggled inside Iraq.  It is like shooting yourself in the foot, because when you help the terrorists in Iraq, they will attack you from in Syria.  

    CHARLIE ROSE:  Exactly.  

    BASHAR AL-ASSAD:  And it’s known, it’s known that Syria was the first country maybe in the world before all the Arab and Middle Eastern countries and before Europe definitely and before the United States that started fighting with the terrorists and the extremists in the ‘70s.  Actually, that started before in the ‘50s, but it wasn’t -- I mean the main conflict and we defeated them was in the ‘70s and early ‘80s.  

    So we are not that stupid to go and support terrorists anywhere in the world, because terrorists work like the Internet.  You cannot control them.  They don’t recognize borders.  If you have terrorists in Iraq it’s like having them in Syria.  If you have them in Lebanon or Turkey or Jordan it’s like having them in Syria.  So you cannot -- this is not realistic.  

    Second, helping terrorists, I mean third, helping terrorists in Iraq means helping the chaos, and chaos
is contagious.  When you have chaos in Iraq means are you going to have chaos in Syria.  You become more violent, more sectarian, division, later and this division is going to be like going to affect the region from Morocco in the west to Indonesia in the east.  

    CHARLIE ROSE:  But if I were talking to the Americans today they would say to me there were many things that you could have done that you didn’t do.  Yes, you can’t close your border, but you allowed too many through your border

    BASHAR AL-ASSAD:  Let me give you the other example.  In 2004, or maybe ‘05, I’m not sure, the delegation from the Pentagon, from the State Department, from the army, and the intelligence came to Syria to ask for cooperation.  

    And we told them to send a delegation to see what kind of cooperation we can have on the border.  The same delegation, the same delegation left Syria and didn’t come back again.  

    We had the same issue recently in Oman when they asked for cooperation, and I said we are ready to have cooperation to control or to monitor the border, in Iraq and until today we haven’t received delegation.  I told Senator Kerry about this.  

    CHARLIE ROSE:  Do you think that the American withdrawal from Iraq will go well and on time?  

    BASHAR AL-ASSAD:  This is not our debate.  This is wrong debate that has been circulating in the media during the last three years, especially in the United States, whether to leave or not to leave.  Actually the question is how to leave, how to leave with the political process.  

    The answer will be through what political process are you going to launch and support in Iraq and then when you leave it's going to be better, the situation will be better, and at that time you can be committed.  

    Now any time, of course, we support the idea and the principles that the United States should leave Iraq.  But that doesn’t mean it will make it better or worse.  It’s worse, it’s going to be bad if you leave.  

    So what we are worried about if the United States is going to support or launch a good political process where they can reconsolidate all the Iraqis, then they will have constitution and the new institutions, and this is where we are going to say, thank you --

    CHARLIE ROSE:  But I think they would like to have your help in doing that.  

    BASHAR AL-ASSAD:  We are ready.  We are helping the Iraqi now.  We told the Iraqis we are ready.  But there is no real dialogue between Syria and the United States regarding Iraq.  

    CHARLIE ROSE:  There is no dialogue between Syria and the United States regarding Iraq?  

    BASHAR AL-ASSAD:  Regarding Iraq.  They only talk about borders and they only talk about terrorists, because they deal with the terrorists like playing a game on the computer where you have terrorists and you have to shoot them.  That is how they deal with the terrorist issue.  

    They don’t understand that terrorism fighting, means having the atmosphere, the normal situation, fighting the chaos.  You cannot fight the chaos while you have political anarchy.  You should have normal government with the police, with the army, with the normal situation, normal political situation.

    This is where you don’t have chaos.  This is where terrorists fail.  They cannot do anything.  

    CHARLIE ROSE:  So what is your big challenge today?  

    BASHAR AL-ASSAD:  The biggest challenge is how can we keep our society as secular as it is today.  

    CHARLIE ROSE:  As secular?  

    BASHAR AL-ASSAD:  Secular, the society, not the government, because it is secular.  You have diversity, very rich diversity, which we are proud of.  But in the end we are part of this region.  

    You cannot stay isolated from the conflict surrounding you.  If you have sectarian Lebanon in our west and sectarian Iraq on our east, and you don’t have the peace process solved on our southern border, and you have the terrorists dominating the region and let’s say growing with leaps and bounds, you will be affected from this.  You will be -- you pay the price.  

    So it is not about being passive and say I’m going to protect myself.  How can you be active and expand what you have to the others?  So the challenge is facing extremism in this region.  

    CHARLIE ROSE:  But the extremism, some people believe, are those people who are never secular, who in fact find in religion a cause.  

    BASHAR AL-ASSAD:  They always use religion to assume the mantle of religion through Islam or whatever in order to have followers.  They only assume it.  I don’t think they are convinced about what they are doing.  

    Some of them, they are ignorant.  They believe they are helping the religion this way.  But at the end, it’s not about those.  It’s about the others.  How can they influence, because I mean you always have extremists in everything, in politics, in religion, Christianity, Judaism.  In every religion you have extremism.  But it is about how much can they influence the society.  

    At long as we have open minded people, don’t worry about them, they are going to be isolated.  I’m not worried about what mantle they assume to convince the other.  I’m worried about how much the other can protect themselves from them.  

    CHARLIE ROSE:  But as I listen to you say that it seems an incongruity between saying that and looking at who you have great relations with and who you support in the region.  

    BASHAR AL-ASSAD:  That's why I said it is not about who is like you and who is not.  It is about the cause.  They have cause, they have support.  They are not extremists.  If you mean Hezbollah..

    CHARLIE ROSE:  Hezbollah is not extremist?  

    BASHAR AL-ASSAD:  No, it is not.  They support peace.  If you want peace, they support peace.  They believe in Islam as -- to be the government in their country.  This is their freedom of -- they are free to think whatever they want.  

    But they never try to implement it by force.  This is where you cannot blame Lebanon as extremists.  Extremists want to force you to go in a certain way and sometimes they threat you and sometimes kill them.  This is extremism.  Not to have your idea.

    Of course we are going to have different ideas, different political currents, religious currents.  That is normal.  This is the diversity that we have.  But they are not extremists because they never try to implement by force their doctrine.  

    CHARLIE ROSE:  If Israel would retreat to its ‘67 boundaries, would you encourage Iran, Hamas, Hezbollah to recognize their right to exist and reach a full agreement with them?  

    BASHAR AL-ASSAD:  If you talk about a treaty, part of the treaty will be this recognition.  And who signs the treaty are the governments.  And when you talk about the peace you talk about Syria track, Lebanese track, means Syrian and Lebanese government and Palestinian track, Palestinian government.

    When the government recognizes Israel and Israel is committed to the treaty, I think the whole mood, the whole atmosphere on the popular level will change.  So everybody will go in that direction.  

    But the recognition that you are talking about will come from the government, not from the people.  The people will reflect their recognition by normal relations -- by trade, by tourism, any other kind of relations.  

    If Israel is committed I’m sure the people will be very positive about the action.  That takes time.  To be realistic, that will not happen overnight.  Conflict for 60 years, the treaty is not enough to change it overnight.  It takes time.  It needs procedures.  You start building the trust after the treaty.  
    
    So how to build the trust, that will take time.  But I’m sure that this normal relation will be dominating between Israeli and the neighboring countries.  There is no doubt about this, whether Hezbollah, Hamas, or any other one.  

    At the end the organization, they have people, they have grassroots.  The grassroots part of this society will be affected.  So of course it will, and we will encourage, of course we will encourage because they always ask for peace.  

    CHARLIE ROSE:  People say, this is about you, in the beginning when you took over the presidency, you were your father’s son, that today you have emerged as your own person.  Do you feel that?  

    BASHAR AL-ASSAD:  In my house I’m the son of my father.  But in this position, from the very first time, I should be the president who has taken the responsibility of everything.  And if I was the son of my father in the way they mean it, I wouldn’t have succeeded in dealing with a very difficult circumstance.  

    So I wouldn’t look at myself in either way.  I look at myself as somebody who has responsibility, who did what he is convinced about, and he is convinced that this is for the sake of his people.  

    CHARLIE ROSE:  Do you believe you have consolidated your power so that you can take more risk now?  

    BASHAR AL-ASSAD:  No, I didn’t consolidate my power.  I have more support by the public.  That’s what I have during the last three years.  

    CHARLIE ROSE:  How do you think you gained that?  

    BASHAR AL-ASSAD:  I think because they believe that I work according to a national agenda.  That doesn’t mean I was fully right.  I made mistakes.  But if you made mistakes according to goodwill and based on national agenda, nobody would blame you.  They will support you because are you human, you are going to make mistakes.

    So that’s how I, again, because I said everything, every decision we have to take should be 100 percent Syrian, not 90 percent, 100 percent Syrian.  That is what we did.  That is how I gain the support of the people.  

    That doesn’t mean they agree with me in everything, support is different from agreeing with.  They don’t agree, we disagree about different issues, but the support mean the trust.  Even if you go toward peace when you started negotiations in Turkey doesn’t mean everybody supported that negotiation.  Maybe this side, maybe the way, maybe the timing, you have different point of view.  

    But at the end they trusted you that you are going for a good thing.  Whether you fail or not, but at the end of you have goodwill and they trust you.  That’s how you get it.  

    CHARLIE ROSE:  Thank you.  

    BASHAR AL-ASSAD:  Thank you for coming here.  

    CHARLIE ROSE:  It’s pleasure to see you in Damascus.  Thank you very much, as always.  

    BASHAR AL-ASSAD:  Thank you.