CHARLIE ROSE: Khaled Meshaal is officially the leader of the
political bureau of Hamas, the organization that has been resisting the
Israeli occupation following the 1967 war. Many believe he is the most
important leader in Hamas. In 2006, Hamas beat its rival, Fatah, in the
Palestinian elections.
A year later, it seized power in the Gaza Strip. The United States,
the European Union and Israel consider Hamas a terrorist organization, yet
many believe that it must be engaged in order for the peace process to
succeed. Many today are talking about dialogue. Russian President Dmitry
Medvedev met with Meshaal in Damascus earlier this month, and that is where
I met with him for an exclusive interview in his offices in Damascus
yesterday.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHARLIE ROSE: Are you surprised that you are alive?
KHALED MESHAAL: Of course not. Because my life is in the hands of
God and not in the hands of Netanyahu nor the hands of the Mossad.
CHARLIE ROSE: I look at pictures here, pictures here, these are?
KHALED MESHAAL: Martyrs.
CHARLIE ROSE: Martyrs. These are people who have been killed.
KHALED MESHAAL: Yes, of course. Yes, we are very proud of our
martyrs. They have a very important great place in the Palestinian memory.
And because as long as the Palestinian people resist the occupiers, the
martyrs are of a great value to the Palestinian people.
And this is why every Palestinian martyr -- wishes to be a martyr and
would sacrifice himself for his people as in defending his homeland. And I
look forward to be a martyr, but I know that my life is in the hands of
God. I have age 55, 55 age, and God will decide when it will come to an
end and not the Israeli assassination. This is why I do not see death, if
it comes, welcome. I could have died in -- I mean, 13 years ago, but I
didn’t because God knew that I still have some life to live. And that
makes me even braver and it doesn’t make me fear the Israeli.
CHARLIE ROSE: That looks to me like Sheikh Yassin. The attempted
assassination of you got him out of prison. And then he was killed. You
have no fear.
KHALED MESHAAL: I do not fear death at all. Trust me, Charlie, that
the Israeli assassinator would fear the Palestinian victim. Imagine, those
who are the killers, here we are as the victims who become martyrs in the
Palestinian sense (ph) do not fear. We do not fear the Israelis, because
first we believe in God, and second, we are ready to sacrifice ourselves
for Palestine.
CHARLIE ROSE: Do you think they would kill you if they could?
KHALED MESHAAL: And they keep trying.
CHARLIE ROSE: They have.
KHALED MESHAAL: They try, but up until now they couldn’t. Maybe they
will kill me soon, later. But it doesn’t matter with me.
CHARLIE ROSE: If I was in Jerusalem or Tel Aviv, Israeli leaders
would show me pictures, violence against Israeli civilians. They would say
you did it. Violence begets violence.
KHALED MESHAAL: It’s not like this. It’s not this formula. How did
this conflict emerge in the first place? Israel started by the occupation,
so the resistance is a reaction. I mean, I am a physist (ph), and you know
that the law of Newton that says every action generates a reaction. The
action is the occupation. And the reaction from the Palestinians is the
resistance. So when the occupation comes to an end, the resistance will
end. As simple as that. If Israel withdraws to the 1967 borders, so that
will be the end of the Palestinian resistance.
CHARLIE ROSE: You are saying if the Israelis withdraw to the ‘67
borders, give or take this place or that place, right of return,
Palestinian capital in East Jerusalem, what else?
KHALED MESHAAL: If Israel withdraws to the borders of 1967, and from
East Jerusalem, that will become the capital of the Palestinian state with
the right of self -- with the right of return for the refugees and with a
Palestinian state with real sovereignty on the land and on the borders and
on the checkpoints. Then we -- the Palestinian state will decide the
future of the relationship with Israel. And we will respect the decision
that will reflect the viewpoint of the majority of the Palestinian people
both inside and outside Palestine.
CHARLIE ROSE: And you would be happy forever for that to be the
territory of Palestine? You need no more territory?
KHALED MESHAAL: You know, Charlie, that half of the Palestinian
people belong to Palestine of 1948. Them and their parents are born on
that land in Haifa/Jaffa -- even -- and which means that they belong to
that territory. This is why we say if Israel withdraws to the borders of
1967, it doesn’t mean that it gives us back all the land of the
Palestinians.
But we do consider this as an acceptable solution to have a
Palestinian state on the borders of 1967, and this, the people, whether
that belongs to the West Bank and Gaza or to the land of 1948, the
Palestinian state will have a referendum. And the Palestinian people will
decide. We in Hamas will respect the decision of the Palestinian majority.
This is a democracy.
CHARLIE ROSE: But just within the territories of the ‘67 boundaries?
KHALED MESHAAL: In other words --
CHARLIE ROSE: This is an important point.
KHALED MESHAAL: Don’t request the Palestinian people to have a
certain stance from Israel while living under the Israeli occupation. Give
the Palestinian people the opportunity to live in a normal situation in a
Palestinian state, and then the Palestinian people with complete freedom
will decide.
CHARLIE ROSE: You know what the Israeli people feel. Hamas, you
don’t respect our right to exist, call us a Nazi state, in your charter.
Why should they believe that the Palestinian people and the leadership
would accept and live in peace side-by-side?
KHALED MESHAAL: Who should have the fear and have this sense of
danger? Those who own the atomic arms and have the strongest military in
the region and launch wars in the region and could have Israel with (ph)
force, and after all that you come to tell us that they fear us?
We, the people who live under occupation, without homeland, our lands
are occupied and our Islamic and the Christian (INAUDIBLE) and religious
faiths are being punished. And we are killed inside and outside Palestine.
Who should have the fear? Israel is the state that makes terrorism and
fear in the region. Since Madrid, since Oslo, have you heard an Israeli
leader saying, I will recognize the Palestinian rights? Yasser Arafat told
them I recognize you; I give you security; I recognize Israel and still
they didn’t make peace with him. They assassinated him by the end. And
they told him that we will give you the state after five years. And no
state was established.
Today, Mahmoud Abbas was welcome by Israel when he came to office in
2005. What did Israel do for him? Olmert, Netanyahu, they didn’t give
Mahmoud Abbas anything. So the problem is not on the Palestinian side, nor
the Arab side. It is with the Israeli side. And I think Obama’s
administration realizes that the obstacle is not with the Palestinians or
not the Arabs, it’s with Israelis and Netanyahu.
CHARLIE ROSE: You have no objection to the Jewish people, no
objection to Jews. It’s a political argument?
KHALED MESHAAL: Let me tell you very clearly. We respect all
religions. We do not fight Israel because it’s a Jewish, but because it is
occupying our land, our territory. Palestine as the cradle of religions
and the prophets, has always witnessed tolerance throughout history between
Christians, Muslims and the Jews.
I do not have any problem with Christians nor with Jews. My problem
is with those who occupy my homeland. Whether a Jew, whether a Christian
or a Muslim, my problem is with the occupation and not with the religion.
People have the right to believe in whatever they like, and we can still
live together, and we lived like this for hundreds of years in that region.
This is why the Jewish problem did not appear in Palestine. It didn’t
appear in the Muslim region. It appeared in Europe, because in our
countries, we have had tolerance with the Jews. It appeared as a problem
in Europe and it was exported to us. And we became the victims of the
Jewish issue.
CHARLIE ROSE: The requirements that have been suggested are for you -
- for Palestinians to come together, settle your differences with Fatah.
Where is the reconciliation?
KHALED MESHAAL: This is a question that you should ask in Washington
and not here.
CHARLIE ROSE: Washington is responsible for the conflict between
Hamas and Fatah?
KHALED MESHAAL: From one perspective, yes. After the Mattah (ph)
agreement, General Dayton (ph) cooperated with some Palestinian leaders,
(INAUDIBLE). And that brought Mattah agreement to a failure.
As for today, as far as I know, my accurate information tells that
George Mitchell, the American envoy, told the Egyptians and he told Mahmoud
Abbas a few months ago that there is a veto on the Palestinian
reconciliation unless Hamas subjected itself to the conditions of the
quartet. But if there is a government between Hamas and Fatah, the
American administration will stop the assistance to the Palestinian people,
so there is an American veto on the Palestinian reconciliation.
CHARLIE ROSE: Maybe the Israelis are happy, maybe not. But as long
as there is a division, they can’t negotiate with anybody and produce the
kind of results that are necessary.
KHALED MESHAAL: Undoubtedly, the Palestinian divide like this is very
negative. And it is damaging all of us, and the reconciliation is our
responsibility as Palestinians. However, the problem is there is a
Palestinian party, which is Mahmoud Abbas and Fatah, that do not want to
have real partnership between Fatah and Hamas, in the political decision,
the security decision and in supervising the election. They don’t want
Hamas to be in power. This is why when we won the election in 2006, they
didn’t like the results. And they were assisted by the Americans and the
Israelis against us.
The question is if they had (INAUDIBLE) of America -- or the American
administration, because I wouldn’t blame the American people -- if the
American administration is interested in the reconciliation, why it didn’t
accept the results of the elections of 2006? Why it interferes and it
supported the other Palestinian side or (INAUDIBLE) Hamas.
Why the American administration accepted the Israeli election
regardless of the results, accepted Netanyahu, accepted extremists like
Lieberman to be the head of the Israeli diplomacy, and did not accept
Hamas? But it has an embargo on Hamas and it stopped the assistance.
This is double standard. And this is what has the Palestinian people
angry and the people of the region. The United States of America has the
biggest democracy in the world and it has values of democracy that we all
admire.
Why it doesn’t allow us to practice democracy as it is practiced by
the American people and by the European people? Why the American
administration wants elections with guaranteed results? And in the
interests of whom? In the interests of those who are corrupted. The
American administration calls for reform and for combating corruption, but
in the Arab region, supports those who are corrupted.
CHARLIE ROSE: You believe and you say to the president of the United
States about Hamas, in this interview, you say to him, Hamas is here to
stay. You have to deal with us in order to settle the Palestinian issue.
KHALED MESHAAL: Yes, that’s right, and I would like to tell him as
well -- we don’t have a problem whatsoever with the United States of
America nor with the American interest. America is a great state. It is a
superpower and it has its right to seek its interest. But its interests
shouldn’t be at the expense of the interests of others and the peoples of
the region.
Second, Israel is the obstacle in the face of peace in the region.
And the United States of America morally and politically has to deal with
this reality and not to put pressure on the Palestinian and the Arab side.
Third, the American administration should differentiate between the
American politics and the Israeli politics. And because the problem in the
region here is when looking at the American and Israeli politics, you see
the same agenda for both the Americans and the Israelis. And this
complicates matters. Israel these days will become a burden on the
American interests and on the image of America in the world.
Finally, I would like to say since America adopts democracy, calls for
human rights, it has to give the same rights to the people of the region.
To give them the right to practice their democracy and to respect the
results of that democracy and to deal with those that come as a result of
the election, as a result of democracy.
This does not mean that democracy will bring power that will fight the
United States. No. The powers that will be elected will deal with the
American side with open-mindedness, and with the world.
Our problem in brief is with the Israeli occupation. The embargo on
Gaza is an immoral crime. It should stop. The political objectives of the
embargo on Gaza will not be achieved. To the contrary, Hamas is getting
stronger and the Palestinian people become more insistent of their rights.
And fighting Hamas will not make it weaker. The American decision makers
should realize that any party that is considered by the United States and
by the Israelis as an enemy will gain more support in the region. So the
short way for the United States is to deal with the real representatives of
the Palestinian people, and the people of the region. This is the right
way.
CHARLIE ROSE: But the American argument is this. Renounce violence.
Recognize the right of Israel to exist. Don’t tell Israel you want to
drive them into the sea. Recognize all the agreements. Why is that hard
for you?
KHALED MESHAAL: First of all, President Obama in his speeches
undoubtedly since he came into the office very positive, and we listened
attentively to his speeches. And in the number of occasions, I appreciated
the political approach Obama suggests. But up until now, the Obama
administration is not having a behavior that is in line with what is being
reiterated by President Obama.
Now you say that Hamas should be submitted to these conditions. I
would like -- I would like to tell you the dialogue with Hamas does not
need preconditions. Now, America has dialogue with Iran, also with Syria,
without any preconditions. Why in the case of Hamas the dialogue with us
should be based on some preconditions?
To put preconditions beforehand, just to say that in order to have a
dialogue, this is unjust and not logic. I mean, the conditions will be
developed once we have the dialogue, and then when we want to develop
agreements so each party will put on the table its demands and its
requirements. But when you put, I mean, some conditions before accepting a
dialogue with me, this means that you consider me as secondhand. And that
(INAUDIBLE) Hamas up to the level of having a dialogue with the United
States or with the European union. This is a position that I do not accept
for myself.
Second, you say that the second condition is to renounce violence. We
call it resistance, of course, it is a result of the occupation. Once the
occupation comes to an end, the violence or the resistance will come to an
end. Today, in the West Bank, is there resistance? There is no resistance
in the West Bank. Mahmoud Abbas and Salam Fayyad stopped it. Why Israel
doesn’t withdraw?
So the problem is not with the resistance. When the occupation comes
to an end, the resistance will end.
As for the recognition of Israel rights of existence, I told you once
the Palestinian state appears, it will go for that. Of course, we don’t
request the Palestinian people who are under occupation to recognize their
occupiers, to admit the rights of their occupiers.
We are the ones who need the recognition of the world. Who destroyed
all these agreements? Who has not honored all these agreements? It was
Israel. For example, the road map, accepted by the Arabs. Accepted by
Mahmoud Abbas. And before him by Yasser Arafat.
And today, Mahmoud Abbas applied the road map and all the security
commitments, whereas Sharon has 13 conditions on the road map, and
President Bush accepted that. So who is the party that is not honoring the
agreement? It’s not Hamas, nor the Palestinian side. It is the Israel
side. Why don’t you call for Israel to respect the agreements? The
Palestinian people will respect any agreement once it is in the interest of
the Palestinian people and just for them.
CHARLIE ROSE: So if the United States calls for Israel to respect the
agreements, you will say to the United States and to everyone else, we’ll
respect the agreements. If Israel respects the agreements, I agree to
respect the agreements, and I’m the leader of the Hamas.
KHALED MESHAAL: Any agreement that meets the Palestinian rights will
be fully respected by us. And we will be fully committed to it.
CHARLIE ROSE: Every supporter of Israel watching this interview wants
to hear you say we’ll change the charter. It was 20 years ago, but we’ll
change it. We don’t want to call you Nazis. That was said 20 years ago.
Things have changed. We have changed. Why not?
KHALED MESHAAL: I mean, just notice with me this unjust request.
Hamas is called upon to change its charter, which is written, without --
Israel is not requested to change its behavior. I tell you today, I accept
a state on the borders of 1967.
CHARLIE ROSE: I accept a state on the borders of 1967. I believe two
states can live side-by-side in peace with established borders. That’s the
end of it.
KHALED MESHAAL: Let me answer this with my own words. Hamas accepts
a Palestinian state on the borders of 1967 with its capital Jerusalem and
with the right of return. This stand by Hamas is announced, practiced, and
it signed an agreement with Fatah, which is the national compact document.
So, the whole world should deal with Hamas, with what it practices,
its political stance that it declared, and not on the charter that was put
20 years ago. Whereas today, Charlie, the world has to deal with Israel
based on what it does now. It’s a crime in Gaza in the war in 2005-’06.
Israel killed thousands of civilians, destroyed the schools, universities,
hospitals, venues of the United Nations, killed the children. Israel
commits massacres, kills the children in Jerusalem, and it attacks the Aqsa
Mosque, and assassinates people inside and outside Palestine. What -- who
is expected to change is Israel because it is the source of the problem.
But as Hamas, I tell you that we and Fatah and the whole Arabs all
agree on the borders of 1967. This is a big thing that is not met by the
Israelis and international community with what it takes in order to be in
line with this Palestinian and Arab stand. So the problem is not with
Hamas, not with the Palestinians, but with the Israelis.
And by the way, we didn’t say that we will throw the Jews in the sea.
That was said during the Nasserist (ph) era in the ‘60s, it was said by
some Arabs. We didn’t say we will throw the Israelis--
(CROSSTALK)
CHARLIE ROSE: You don’t want to throw the Israelis in the sea, you do
not. And do you want it to be a Jewish state? Which is what Mr. Netanyahu
-- recognize that Israel exists as a Jewish state.
KHALED MESHAAL: This is not my task. I am a Palestinian leader. My
mission is to have the Palestinian state and to make my people live without
occupation and to have self-determination and to live in the homeland
without being homeless. There is no one case in history that the victim is
required to recognize the occupiers. This is not logic. The victims’
mission is to stop the occupation, and as a Palestinian leader, my mission
is to make my people able to live in a state of their own, peacefully.
CHARLIE ROSE: The Israelis say and others say that when you launched
the rocket attacks in Gaza, what were they supposed to do?
KHALED MESHAAL: The rockets are a Palestinian reaction for self-
defendance (sic). Israel occupied their land and it attacks us. It has F-
15, F-16, Apache, the rockets and the modern American arms. I mean, with
that all, it kills the children, the Palestinians, it killed Salah Ashhadi
(ph). And with Salah Ashhadi, it killed 17 women and children. So this is
what Israel does.
So what would the Palestinians do? They do not have a developed
American arms, so what do they do? They just manufacture this primitive
weapons in order to defend themselves, so that -- this is an expression of
the defense, that we still are alive, and we will not be subject to the
Israelis.
And we stopped the rockets many times. In 2008, we said we will stop
the rockets and we will stop the operations. But Israel has to stop its
attacks and to open the border checkpoints and to stop the embargo on Gaza.
So the Palestinian rockets are an expression of self-defense. And it
is not the action, it is the reaction. We do not want to target the
Israeli civilians.
But our rockets are not accurate.
CHARLIE ROSE: They said you were forcing them to target.
KHALED MESHAAL: Our rockets are not modern, are not, I mean,
developed. I call upon the American administration to give Hamas modern
rockets so we can use them very accurately against military targets and not
civilians.
But to say that Hamas hides its rockets amongst civilians, this is not
true. You know that Gaza Strip is over 360 square meters, very narrow
coastal line on which 1.5 million people live. So Israel has accurate
rockets that can focus to target the Israeli militants. But it
deliberately targets the Palestinian civilians in order to affect the
morale of the Palestinian people. But I mean, otherwise, what is the
meaning of destroying the offices of the United Nations? I mean, what has
Hamas to do with those offices or with hospitals?
CHARLIE ROSE: The 9/11 attack against America, you condemned.
KHALED MESHAAL: Yes. We are against targeting any innocent person.
Those who were -- died, those who died in the American towers are honest
people, and we are against targeting them. What I’m saying, targeting the
American people inside the United States, the innocent people, this is an
act that is condemned and it is refused.
However, the American soldier who occupies Iraq or Afghanistan, the
Israeli soldiers who occupy my territory, I have the right to resist,
because this is the right of the people to resist whoever occupies its
territory.
CHARLIE ROSE: I understand that argument. The attack in Spain you
condemned. The attack in London you condemned. All attacks outside --
KHALED MESHAAL: Yes, any operations targeted civilians, innocent
people are condemned and rebuked. Whether in Spain, in London, anywhere
else in the world.
CHARLIE ROSE: OK. I just want to understand what you feel about
other events outside of --
KHALED MESHAAL: However, if I may, here I would like to add. I do
not want you in the West to stop just asking what do you think of this or
what do you think of that? You should ask yourself why did this operation
happen. Yes, these are not acceptable operations. But why did they
happen? And here I’m not justifying this operation, but trying to explain.
There is an outrage in the Arab world and the Muslim world from the
Israeli crimes and the Israeli occupation and from the American biased
politics in favor of Israel and from the American and European policies
against the interests of the Arabs and in favor of Israel.
If we are to really stop such operations, we have to have a just
solution for the cause of Palestine and to stop the occupation in Iraq and
in Afghanistan, and then to respect the people of the region, their
independence and their interests. Because the overall feeling in the
Muslim world is that the Americans are supporting Israel, supporting -- or
the West, support Israel, and they feel that the West has (INAUDIBLE) our
wealth and will treat us not on equal terms.
CHARLIE ROSE: What would it achieve to have the American officials
talk to you and your colleagues? What would it accomplish?
KHALED MESHAAL: Dialogue is a human language that should be used
amongst the people of the world. So it is quite normal that people have
dialogue. And usually those who have dialogue are those who are of
different positions or different viewpoints. So it’s quite normal to have
a dialogue, because a dialogue would enable each of the parties to hear
(INAUDIBLE) from the other without the cliches nor the prepositions.
This is why we welcome the dialogue with the United States. But we do
not accept preconditions for the dialogue. Let America hear from us first.
I met with President Medvedev.
CHARLIE ROSE: Yes.
KHALED MESHAAL: And he said -- the Russian president -- and he’s one
of the international quartet. And I think he realized that the dialogue
with Hamas is very useful.
CHARLIE ROSE: What came out of that conversation?
KHALED MESHAAL: Let me tell you something funny. After sitting with
President Medvedev, I thanked him for his brave stand. And I told him for
your own information, Mr. President Medvedev, the Americans have dialogue
with Hamas but indirectly. He laughed.
I think that the United States of America should have direct dialogue
with Hamas without having mediators here and there. Because the United
States is a super (ph) state and it shouldn’t fear Israel. And it should
have dialogue with all concerned parties in the region.
And you ask what is the importance of this dialogue. When George
Mitchell started his mission in the region, I said if George Mitchell can
succeed in his mission in the region without having a dialogue with Hamas,
so let’s see him do so. He had an experience in Ireland, and he knows that
he couldn’t succeed in Ireland until he had dialogue with all parties. So
why does he believe that he will succeed in the Palestinian issue without
having a dialogue with Hamas?
CHARLIE ROSE: Does he believe that, do you think?
KHALED MESHAAL: I think deep inside, he knows that the dialogue with
Hamas is a necessity. But I don’t know when he will have the courage to
say yes, we will have dialogue with Hamas as President Medvedev did. I
think President Medvedev after one full hour of dialogue with the President
Bashar al-Assad, I think President Medvedev came away with completely a
different, very positive understanding.
Let me tell you something important. Hamas is characterized by being
frank, clear and credible. It has nothing hidden. We say what we think.
And we respect our words with everybody.
CHARLIE ROSE: What is President Medvedev prepared to do?
KHALED MESHAAL: You should ask him this question. I don’t oblige
(ph) him. I told him my viewpoint.
CHARLIE ROSE: But that is the question.
KHALED MESHAAL: But I requested him of two things. Let me say I
invited him for two things. First, lift all restrictions on the
Palestinian reconciliation, whether the conditions of the quartet or
others. I requested him to work for the lifting the embargo of Gaza. And
to send cement, iron and the construction materials to Gaza.
And this is an opportunity to tell you in this interview and through
you onto the American people and the American administration that it’s time
to end this embargo on Gaza, because it’s immoral, unethical, and it failed
in achieving its political objective.
It is the right of the Palestinian people in Gaza to live like all
other people without an embargo. Because Gaza today is the biggest prison
in the world and in history. You know that Israel in the last war
destroyed tens of thousands of houses, hospitals, and universities. And it
is the responsibility of the international community and especially the
United States of America to reconstruct what has been destroyed by Israel
in Gaza.
And we do not have it as a condition that this reconstruction
operation to be done through Hamas, no. As I told the President Medvedev,
the international community can develop an international mechanism that is
independent to introduce the construction materials into Gaza and to
supervise the rebuilding, reconstruction of the houses and schools
destroyed by Israel. Because our mission is to service our people. We
want the Palestinian people in Gaza to live simply in houses, I mean, in
winter and in summer. And this is the responsibility of the international
community.
Unfortunately, some Palestinian leaderships lie to the Americans and
to the Europeans when saying that Hamas has it as a condition to supervise
the reconstruction. We do not have this as a condition. We tell the whole
world, come to Gaza, reconstruct the destroyed houses.
CHARLIE ROSE: What’s your strategy to end the occupation?
KHALED MESHAAL: We welcome Israel withdraws to the borders of 1967
peacefully, without bloodshed and away from wars. And we think that this
option can be achieved if the United States of America interferes too, and
the international community, strongly, in order to oblige Israel to do so.
However, I cannot guarantee the likelihood of this possibility. I really
do wish it would happen so we can avoid bloodshed in the region.
And in our Islamic philosophy, we by the Islamic rules are ordered to
follow the least costly roles and the most peaceful with the least
casualties. However, the confidence of the people of this region with this
possibility is very weak. Because so far they haven’t seen any
international stance that would oblige Israel to do so. This is why we had
to opt for resistance. We had to have resistance because we think it’s the
way that would oblige Israel to withdraw.
Let me give you an example. Egypt lost the battle in 1967, as well as
Syria and Jordan. When Egypt wanted to withdraw Sinai, it had a war. Like
the depletion war as it was called between 1967 and 1973, and then it
fought the war of 1973. And through that war, it could regain Sinai, so
this is the logic. When you do not get your right with the peaceful way,
you have to have an option. In the case of states, it’s the option of war.
And in the case of the people, it’s the option of resistance, as you
obtained your independence in the United States through the well-known
American revolution. And as the Palestinian-- the French people had their
independence against the Nazis.
So if the international community led by the United States would do so
an would really have the shortcut and would oblige Israel to recognize the
Palestinians rights and to withdraw, otherwise we are obliged to resist.
You ask me about the likelihood of success. I tell you as I can see
you now, Mr. Charlie, I am pretty sure, positive, 100 percent that our
option will take place, because we are pretty convinced that people
ultimately will gain.
CHARLIE ROSE: The assassination in Dubai, you spoke at the funeral.
Will Hamas retaliate?
KHALED MESHAAL: As I said, every action generates a reaction.
Killing would mean bring killing, but there is a big difference between the
one who starts and the killing that comes as-- I mean, from those who
defend themselves.
This is first. What is even more important, Charlie, is that Israel
in Dubai assassinated two things. Assassinated Mahmoud and Mabhuh (ph),
but at the same time, assassinated the sovereignty of Dubai and the
sovereignty of its allies in Europe, France, Germany, Britain, Canada,
Australia because it attacked the specificity of those people, stealing the
passports, claiming identities that are not correct.
This should be seen by you in the West as much more than a mere
assassination, because Israel will see that it has a free hand to do
whatever it likes. Because if the international community keeps quiet
repeatedly on its-- regarding its crimes, because the British said and the
Australians two days ago said that Israel fortified the passports several
times, and because there was no stand against this, it keeps repeating it.
As we say in an Arabic proverb, those who do not fear any punishment will
misbehave.
CHARLIE ROSE: And then there’s the case of the Israeli soldier, Gilad
Shalit. What will it take to get him free?
KHALED MESHAAL: Unfortunately it is at a standstill. The reason is
the position of Netanyahu and his smaller government. He wants Shalit back
without setting free the prisoners we asked for nor the numbers we asked
for. Israel has one soldier in captivity.
I mean, he is in captivity after a battle. We have 8,000 people,
children, women and men in the Israeli prisons. So Netanyahu should be
held responsible. Gilad Shalit has the right to go back to his family.
Unfortunately, the American administration had a negative influence in
delaying the exchange agreement.
CHARLIE ROSE: It would have happened but for the Americans?
KHALED MESHAAL: Those who, I mean, the one who is responsible is
Netanyahu. However, the American administration had a negative goal
because it requested Netanyahu not to have the agreement in order not to
make that Hamas, not to make Hamas stronger and weaken Mahmoud Abbas. And
this is not my words. These are the words of Naum Shalit, the father of
Gilad Shalit.
CHARLIE ROSE: The United States in one case, one of their central
arguments with Syria is its support of Hamas and Hezbollah. They have a
judgment that you stand in the way.
KHALED MESHAAL: We are national resistance movements. And we are not
agents of anybody. We have our own decision in our hand, but we welcome
all those who support us and stand next to us. And those who support
Hamas, we tell them thank you. And those who support all peoples of the
world that seek freedom should be thanked, not to be condemned or punished.
In the real American interest perspectives, the American
administration should not blame Syria for supporting Hamas nor Hezbollah.
Because Hamas and Hezbollah are not against the United States of America.
But unfortunately, this is the stand taken by the American administration
only from the perspective of the Israeli vision (ph).
CHARLIE ROSE: Throughout this conversation, everything that you have
said to me comes out of what you believe to be a resistance to an
occupation and a national effort to create a state for the Palestinian
people. There is also around the world an Islamic revolution, a jihadist
movement too. I hear you making a very careful separation from that.
KHALED MESHAAL: Hamas is a national resistance movement. Yet we
adopt the Islamic intellectual approach because we are part of the Muslim
and Arab region. We have a battle only with the Israeli occupation. We do
not have any military act anywhere else in the world. We do not consider
any country in the world other than Israel as our enemy. We might say that
the American policies are wrong, but we do not have any conflict whatsoever
except with the Israeli politics. In other words, we do not practice
resistance as an open choice anywhere else in the world but in our occupied
territories and against Israel.
And we do not launch a religious war. We are not against the Jews nor
the Christians. And we do not pass any statements about their religions.
We only resist those who occupy our territories and attack us. I mean,
this region, especially Palestine, because it is a cradle of prophets and
religions, has lived in complete tolerance over hundreds of years. So this
is in brief Hamas’ stand. And on the level of the (INAUDIBLE) Islamic
intellectual (ph), we have the moderate Islamic approach.
CHARLIE ROSE: Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you.
KHALED MESHAAL: Happy to see you.
CHARLIE ROSE: From Damascus, the leader of Hamas, Khaled Meshaal.
Thank you for joining us. See you next time.
END
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